Momentum Podcast: 721

I Got Rid of Commissions and This is What Happened...

by Alex Charfen

Episode Description

About ten months ago, I had an idea… (An idea that is practically unheard of in business and would go against all industry standards) I wanted to eliminate high-pressure sales and commission-based sales reps in our company. Instead, I wanted to create a purely consultative sales experience with our Coaches and zero commissions.

Alex Charfen, a business growth coach who helps entrepreneurs grow and scale their businesses, gives practical, tangible, and actionable tips that you can implement into your business right now.

When I shared this with a few close friends, they told me I was crazy, it wouldn’t work, and it was impossible… Still, I had this firm belief that it could work and my team stood behind me. The results have been incredible and far beyond what I expected.

By the end of this episode of the Momentum Podcast, you will learn how:
– We immediately started converting more when we removed the commission and pressure. Ten months later, we are exceeding the golden standard for high ticket conversions.
– Removing commission sales and putting genuine consultative sales in place has completely shifted everything for our company. It’s increased the number of people coming into our high ticket programs, improved our delivery, adoption rate, and retention rate.
– If you’ve been struggling with sales or felt frustrated with your commission sales process, this approach offers a different option and way to look at things.

The Momentum Podcast is created specifically for entrepreneurs like you to get into momentum and take the rest of the world with you. If this episode helped you do that, take a moment and leave a review. Let us know how we have helped you make a bigger impact on the world.

Coaches or consultants on your team could be the best sales closers you have. You might not need all the persuasion or pressure to get the right people into your programs. Joining me today are two of our Coaches, Nicole Zeien-Cox and Stephanie Mondragon. I wanted you to hear from them firsthand what this process looks like and how they approach sales with our members.

Your business has the potential to change the world, and the only way to see that potential become a reality is to implement a strategic plan. If you're ready to learn more, go to to get started.

Our entrepreneurial journey doesn't end here! Be sure to check out our Facebook Community filled with entrepreneurs just like you who are getting into momentum and building world-changing empires

If you are an entrepreneur who is listening in and you can relate, then be sure and head over to and gain access to one of the most requested business tools to grow and scale your business in any market condition, even in this one.

Full Audio Transcript

This is the Momentum podcast.

You can probably already tell from the title of this podcast, but we made a decision that goes against industry standards and is pretty much unheard of in high ticket sales. And our company, we've eliminated high pressure sales and commission based sales reps. Instead, we've implemented a purely consultative sales experience with our coaching team zero commissions. In this episode of the Momentum podcast, Alex is interviewing two of our coaches who work within this process. Every single day they're going to talk about how our conversion rate actually increased. They're going to talk about how this consultative sales experience has improved our delivery, our adoption rate and our retention rate. And they're going to show you how this different option can change the dynamic of a sales call directly. You enjoy.

I'm Alex Charfen, and this is the momentum podcast made for empire builders, game changers, trailblazers, shot takers, record breakers, world makers and creators of all kinds, those among us who can't turn it off and don't know why anyone would want to. We challenge complacency, destroy apathy, and we are obsessed with creating momentum so we can roll over bureaucracy and make our greatest contribution. Sure, we pay attention to their rules, but only so that we can bend them, break them, then rewrite them around our own will. We don't accept our destiny. We define it. We don't understand defeat because you only lose if you stop. And we don't know how. While the rest of the world strives for average and clings desperately to the status quo, we are the minority, the few who are willing to hallucinate. There could be a better future. And instead of just daydreaming of what could be, we endure the vulnerability and exposure it takes to make it real. We are the evolutionary hunters, clearly the most important people in the world, because entrepreneurs are the only source of consistent, positive human evolution and we always will be. Welcome, everyone. I am really excited about what we're doing today about this this recording that we're making today and the fact that it's not just me here. I'm actually joined by two of our team members and I'm so excited for you to meet. I have Nicole Tzion Cox with me and Stephanie Mondragón and Nicole, welcome to the call. Stephanie, welcome to Kosmo's Mahavir.

Thanks, great to be here.

So, yeah, you got it, Nicole. So here's why we're having this call today. As a company, we have completely shifted how we do hyd take it one on one sales and our organization over about the past six months and we've gone. And here I'll explain to you the issue that we were having as a company. And Stephanie, Nicole, maybe you can jump in and just explain some of the issues you were having as coaches. So first, let me set the stage here. Stephanie and Nicole are our coaches in our delivery program, in our programs, where we help entrepreneurs grow and scale their businesses. And on a daily basis, we hold calls both group and one on one, depending on what part of our experience someone is through. And they will jump on a call with either Nicole or Stephanie or Deanna, who runs coaching in and our content department. And so this is what you'll be hearing from the team that actually helps our members move forward and grow. And we were having an issue probably about six or eight months ago. We made this dramatic change in our company. I'll describe the issue that we were having before and tell you why we made this change. So here's the issue we were having. We used to have commission sales person Lizardo do commission sales in our company.

So we would set up sales calls. They would go to a commission sales rep, they would have a sales engagement. We call it a strategy session with our sales rep. And then some of them would end up joining our programs. And we kept having this issue where it felt like some of the people who are joining our programs weren't necessarily exactly the greatest fit. And they came in with kind of a I want you to prove it to me, vib that we were feeling over and over again. So Nicole or Stephanie, does either one of you want to kind of like share what that felt like from the coaching side? Let's start with you, Nicole.

Yeah, when I got on onboarding calls or, you know, no matter what type of call it was, I can just feel the alignment wasn't necessarily there. And I always felt like kind of like you said, we had to prove actually what we did or there might have been false promises. And it just took a lot of fixing, if you will, and explaining this is actually what we do and what you're going to experience. And honestly, I think it was just challenging for that person I remember and for our coaching team. So that's kind of how it felt. We just there's a better way.

Yeah. You know, Nicole, I think what I was feeling and when I was observing and why we made this dramatic change and I'll explain the change in a second. We actually went from commission sales reps to a purely consultative sales with no commissions. And so this has been a huge shift for our company. But here's what I was feeling. And and maybe, Stephanie, you can speak to this a little, was that when you have a commission sales process, there's going to be a level of persuasion. It's just that's that's what ends up happening. Like salespeople persuade they they try to help you make the decision. But there's a level of persuasion. And what I felt like was people had been persuaded enough that they came in with like, OK, you need to prove this to me. You need to show me what everything that was promised in the sales experiment sorry, experience. And it it felt like it kind of set us up in delivery. Did you feel that, Stephanie?

I did. And I especially could feel I came in shortly, like maybe a couple of weeks after the shift was made going to consultative sales. And I really was on board with it and thought I aligned with the culture of the company a whole lot and could tell that several of our members also aligned with the culture of our company. But then there were some outliers that did not seem to align with our culture at all. And when I started investigating how they came into the company, most of them had come in through this, the same process. And it was very evident that they weren't they really weren't a right fit. They've just been kind of pushed into the door.

Yeah, and when you say pushed into the door, it's you know, I actually went back and watched some of the sales calls and it wasn't like people were it wasn't like we had in sales, was overly persuasive, but we were persuading and we weren't necessarily just consulting and listening. And and so let's talk about the change we made. Let's let's let everybody know what we did. So here's what happened. Stephanie, how long have you been with us?

Since July of twenty. Twenty.

OK, so in July of twenty twenty. Oh, wow. Nicole, it's almost it's ten months ago. That's actually a while. So in July of twenty twenty, we made the decision to go from commission sales reps to consultative sales. And here it was, the decision really we made as a team. But like I drove was let's let's remove any type of commission from selling and let's remove commission salespeople from selling and let's sell only using our coaches. And so the genesis of this idea actually came when I owned a consultancy before in my twenties. We did not have sales people. If there was a deal that needed to be done, we put up one of our consultants in front of the person and we would close most of the deals because we were just used to consulting and helping. And and it made it very easy because we would consult in a way that the consultation call felt a lot like the delivery and it was kind of seamless. And so I'm like, this is going to be great in an information products company. So I came up with this idea and the first thing I did was call four or five friends of mine who have commission sales teams. And I'm like, I want to share this idea I have with you. So I told them, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to I'm going to take your coaches and I'm going to put all the sales calls through the coaches because I don't want people being overly persuaded anymore. And I was told by every single one of them I was crazy. Now, there was, I think, four or five people I talked to and with varying degrees of aggression, they were like, I'm one of them was like, Alex, you're completely nuts. This is never going to work. You're going to blow things up. You're not going to have the convergence that was as aggressive as it got and the least aggressive was. I know a lot of people have tried stuff like this and it's not going to work. And so I got no positive feedback at all around this. And I remember coming back and getting on a call and talking to Nicole. I think we were talking and I said, like, hey, I'm getting a lot of negative feedback about this, but I still think that this could work. I remember like I'm trying to say, hey, I still think that we as a company, we might be a little different. And, you know, now I don't I actually don't think we're different. I just think that this process works. So I got all this negative feedback. We decided to do it any way. Nicole, can you kind of share what it was like for you getting on those first few sales calls and how it felt to go from being a coach to now being the first line of communication with somebody coming into the company?

It was interesting, just thinking back to that time versus now, to be very honest, I would say it was was very unknown, which we know unknowns cause a little bit anxiety. I just didn't know what to expect. So I hadn't been on that type of call before, hadn't gone to that process. We had our stale script at the time. So it's kind of like, OK, I'm going to wing it, figure it out. We'll come back and talk about infixes. So those first couple lines is interesting. I know I had to kind of find my rhythm and beat, but very quickly, I mean, it became very natural and something I actually love doing.

I remember on that conversation when I was telling you, hey, I'm getting a lot of negative feedback on this, but I still think it could work. You were a huge proponent of believing it could work. Why? Why did you think it could work?

Because I like proving people wrong. I saw it as a challenge and I'm like, this is interesting. And even, you know, I had my fair share of entrepreneurship and business experience even before Charfen like I've never heard of this. I love it. Let's try it.

So I think it was was part of it also that you felt like it would clean up the experience for our members?

Absolutely. That disconnect had been there for a while and that was part of the discussion. You know, maybe this could either be a bridge or even solve best case scenario. The issues we were having. So definitely.

OK, let's describe the implementation process we went through. So we went from having everyone who came into our company for a strategy session going through a salesperson. We removed the salesperson from the equation. We went to everyone coming in and going to directly to a call with a coach. We started with a script. So we had a decent script. We started with calls, and we really didn't have a lot more than that. Nicole. So let's let's talk about that first early implementation and then what if we built out since then so that this is a real system in our company?

Yeah, since then I think it was probably a couple of months. It was me kind of testing, figuring out what worked. I'd have Kosmo's you Cadey Hailie DNA just kind of go over hazes sell off or I have this idea. So we were continuously kind of testing, refining and proving. So our script is now twenty seven pages.

I want to pause you for a second because when somebody here is twenty seven pages, it's not actually twenty seven pages of dialog. Right. We have the script, some pages, but it is incredibly instructive, right.

Absolutely, yeah. So a lot of it is dialog or narrative to kind of guide you through if you get stuck or, you know, someone new coming in. It's a good onboarding tool, but there's a ton of instruction in there and it's very clearly laid out like of it.

Stephanie, you were you were on board it into this system. Like you said, you came in right. As we were making this transition, you did not get hired as a salesperson, but very soon after you were brought in, we were like, hey, we think we're going to have you started selling? What was that like for you?

And I said, no, I'm not a salesperson.

I remember.

I don't want to sell anything. I don't do that. And then DNA and Cadey quickly told me it's not you don't think of it as sales. Think of it as can we help them? And that perspective shift is what really did it for me. When I really wrap my head around the fact that that was my goal was can we help this company with the programs that we offer? That's how I would get on a call. And I will be very honest. I don't go through the entire sales script. I mean, I use it as I use the outline version on the side of the document just to kind of keep me paced. But really, it just becomes a conversation. And once you know the layout of the conversation, it flows very natural and it frees you up to be able to listen to the individual on the other line and truly hear what they're saying and hear the pain that they're going through and assess whether or not we can indeed help them.

Stephanie, why is it so important to be able to not just hear what they're saying, but how they're saying that the message behind what they're saying, like really empathize with them, why is it so important to have that space on the call to create that empathy?

Because I think that is that's who we are as a company. We really and that is one of the reasons that is the main reason I joined this company. I joined after hearing a podcast about you helping a little girl go through anxiety, her first anxiety attack, and that little girl named Alex.

Yeah. Yeah, I wanted to be part of a company that had a heart like that. So that's how I approach sales calls. Can we help people and gosh, get a little choked up.

Where is the emotion coming from, Stephanie?

Because I feel like I have I've been on a lot of sales calls and I know that there are a lot of other entrepreneurs, I was a struggling entrepreneur before I ever joined this company, and I was on countless sales calls where it was very obvious the person on the other end of the line was just trying to make a sale. And immediately I was turned off by that. And so to be part of a company that does not pursue the sale over the person and their heart means a lot to me because that that's really what I'm all about. And that's what our company is all about, is actually helping others so that then they can help the ones that they're leading and the ones that they're helping, they're trying to help with their business. So, yeah,

Stephanie, for all the people, because I'm going to send this to a select group of friends who told me this was never going to work. You at one point said something that I actually like. I had to pause and say, did she really say that? I remember we were talking about sales and we were talking about how well it was working. And by the way, if you're listening, we're about to share some stats to tell you just how incredibly well this is working. But you made a comment and I'm paraphrasing, but it was something like. I said something like, well, that's why we decided we're just not doing commission sales anymore. And you said, that's right, if it was commission sales, there's no way I would do it. So can you. Because I told you, we got a little bit before the facts. I told you, I don't know people like you exist because the when you said it, I knew it was completely ingrown. It was real. You weren't trying to impress me like you. You didn't want to be in that situation. Can you explain why?

Yeah, because I am an entrepreneur myself and as an entrepreneur personality type, I am so I can feel the second I get on a call, if the person is trying to sell me something just to make the money or if they truly want to help me. And when somebody truly wants to help you, the energetic of the call is different. No. One, you can feel that they're genuine. And then number two, they they're really listening to see if they have to offer is what you need. And if that's what you need, then then by all means, take my money. But if not what I need, then you. You're not helping me at all, you're hurting me, you're keeping me from the solution to my problem. There's a problem there. That's the the whole reason somebody gets on a sales call. They do have a legitimate problem. And if you sell them something that's not going to help them with that problem, then you are just delaying you're just you're delaying their solution. You're causing them more pain. I think that's where the emotion comes from, is I don't ever want to be somebody that that keeps somebody in the pain any longer than they have to be.

Stephanie, there's this this phrase about sales people that a good sales person can sell ice to Eskimos. I actually think a sociopath sells ice Eskimos, to be honest with you. I don't understand how we've equated selling something that someone doesn't need with being a good salesperson. That actually that really does feel sociopathic to me. Like I wouldn't do that. But why would we sell to Eskimos? They just need to go outside and get ice. So it's a solution to somebody who actually needs it. So for you, when you're on our sales interactions, when you're talking to people, how often is it that you're telling someone, hey, we're probably not the right solution right now?

Actually, I did it twice last week, or at least I said our our programs are not what you need. Granted, we did just come out with a new product. That was exactly what they needed. But they weren't they weren't ready for our programs. And one of them admitted a cash flow issue. And I was like, let's stop the call right now. If you have a cash flow issue, you do not need to join a program that you're going to pay a monthly subscription fee for. We do our product coming out, but the one time purchase that can help you assess that cash flow issue and and get a plan to find a remedy for it. So that was.

So in our process, like every person is not a potential sale, we actually figure out whether there are potential sale or not. It's funny, the product you just mentioned are new predictable planning system that was actually built out of a ton of feedback from sales. A lot of both of the two of you saying, like, hey, this person wasn't right for this, but if we had a solution like this, we could help them. And so now we have that solution. So, Nicole, how much different is it now when you are onboarding someone who's gone through a Colonsay with Stephanie than when it was with a commission sales rep? And when I'm specifically asking, is that intangible, that energetic feeling? How much different does it feel now?

It's kind of crazy, I mean, they already just kind of feel like they're part of the Charfen culture or what we stand for, who we are. That makes sense. I can just tell they're very excited to be there a year to learn there's not this whole world. So what is this? What did I buy or do they know exactly what they're getting and they know how we're going to help them already before we showed them really our onboarding process. So it's kind of very relaxed in nature. And you have any questions here, this kind of reiterations on a couple of steps and we're going to go. So it's very it's very nice.

Now, both of you, I think, have recently been on sales calls with friends of mine. I have friends who reach out and say, like, hey, Alex, can you help? And here's what. What I used to do was be like, yes. And I would just right there, explain everything to them and then get them into our process and then usually get them into the program. And I think historically, the people who come through me have been some of the most challenged when they get into the program. So I don't follow the process. Like Stephanie follows a column on the right, I'm I'm challenged to follow the process at all. And what I've started doing is when my friends come to me now, here's how I look at it. Our sales call is really the first delivery call. It really is like it sets you up for the entire program, so I don't want to keep anyone on that Strategy Session on that first delivery call. And so does that does that resonate with both of you that like, that's that's really what it is?

Yeah. I say I don't know about you, Stephanie, but I say that often. Like, if you do choose to join in programs, this is actually one of your first coaching calls. That's the way we look.

Yeah, same thing.

What do people say back to you when you say that or what feeling do you get from them?

So you just like look on this, like their shoulders drop, and even if we mention, like, hey, we don't do high pressure, this trend, that strategy or anything like that, you can just see, like, they actually kind of breathe and they're more relaxed. And then you get that more transparent, honest conversation. That wall comes down and you can just tell you can feel it. See, if

I actually had people say it like, yeah, I can I can totally tell that already that you're not going to try to pressure me in anything. I'm like, yeah, I won't. I promise. I told Alex I wouldn't I wouldn't sell if I had to pressure people into buying.

I remember like that first you said you wouldn't sell them when we that it you came back and you said, OK, I'll do this, but we have to have an agreement that I don't ever have to use any pressure. And I remember saying, Stephanie, that's the whole point, like no pressure. I want anyone to feel persuaded or pushed or pressured. I want them to make the decision with us where they're excited about the decision. So I think for everybody listening and I guarantee you there are salespeople or sales trainers or people who are really big on sales as all they've got to be falling flat on their face. And let's give them a little bit, because when we first did this, the first couple of months were not fantastic, like it was a new process. We were just figuring it out. But we still, I think, did better than our percentage in sales right out of the gate. And we go, yeah.

Do you want to share what is your first couple of months of what we were at?

So where were we?

What was there so before we switched to this? Twenty seven percent.

And where were we when we switched to this is just consultative sales process.

So in July, we were at thirty five point nine for the month, sorry, thirty eight point one for the month. This forty three point three. That was the first two months of training.

So we went from thirty three to forty three. And what are the last couple of months we had because we just had a Voges huge month, righ

We did. So March. We ended with 50 percent in April, forty six point seven percent.

So. So I just want everyone to know I'm actually taking this podcast and send it to my friends that told me this wouldn't work because the gold standard for high ticket sales is 30 percent. We're exceeding that by 10 percent. Boltzmann's and we actually had a 50 percent sales month. And so here's what I want everyone listening to to really understand why I think this is working as if you set up the right type of person who has your problem, like they have to have the problem you solve. And for us, it's someone who has grown a business to the point where now they need help with with leading the company. They need help with getting a clear plan together. They need help with getting everybody going in the same direction. So if somebody is experiencing that issue and they get on one of our calls, they are going to convert because we solve exactly that issue and then they go right into delivery. And so the reason we're hitting 40 and 50 percent, I believe it's because we've removed the pressure from it. I actually think more and not not think I just want everyone listening to know the statistics we have show that especially at the beginning of this process, we immediately started converting more once we removed all of the commission and all of the pressure from the calls, it started day one. And so and I didn't run out and tell everybody about it because I felt like two or three months could be a fluke. But we've now been doing this since July of last year. So we're coming up on ten months. And Nicole, I think every month since we started, we've exceeded our last month and commission sales. Is that fair?

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

By a considerable percentage. So so what else would either? So I'll give you both a chance just to add anything else you want to add in closing, because here's what I want. The entrepreneurs who are listening to understand that if you have coaches on your team, if you have consultants on your team, they could be the best sales closers that you have because you might not need all the persuasion. You might not need all the pressure in order to get the right people in your programs. So, Stephanie, is there anything you'd add in closing?

I would add that especially if you market the entrepreneurs, most entrepreneurs know already instinctively what they need and they come to a sales call with a problem and they think that you're the solution. So as long as you let them know either, yes, we are the solution or you honestly let them know, no, we're not, and then be helpful and direct them to a solution. If you do know who offers the solution that they need, they're going to respect you and you get feedback. The payback comes from social media like we've seen on social media. We recommend it all the time. And it's because we don't pressure people into making an incorrect decision. We we we guide them and aid them on making the right decision for their current stage of business.

That is so good. Stubley. I didn't even really like draw out the fact that that we are now more a more referable solution because the people recommending and referring us know that people are not going to get into some high pressure end game sales call where they feel like they made a decision based on pressure. That is such a good point.

Exactly. And one other one I know we had cannot remember who it was recently said something about training their team to do the same kind of sales and and anybody could do it. And I, I don't I don't know how to say this without. It's not bragging, but not anyone can do it, anyone with the right heart, with a heart to help people can do it. If somebody's motivation is purely money, then they can't do this. It's not it's not going to work.

Yeah, yeah, I totally get it. In fact, if you inject the motivation of money into a process like this, you take a process that is is grueling and very transparent and very real. And you you shift the energetic completely and probably make it feel threatening. Exactly. Nicole, what would you add in closing?

I think one of the biggest things that's kind of stood out to me that we made a switch to the same really good results on these calls. If someone's considering taking this route, is that really blunt? Why are we on this call? Do you remember when we had those conversations? I think being able to identify right away, like if they're speaking, say they want one to one with you. That comes up quite a bit. And I was listening Alex is not one to one anymore or something like that. We can tell them right away and we don't take up 40, 50 minutes of their time dragging out this whole process, just hoping to close them. So I think identifying right away like, hey, what are you hoping to get out of this when you come to us? Now, what's going on for you now? That really sets really the tone of the call and allows us to guide them better. My other thing would be, I don't know, I just always think of relating and validating for the call. I know that there's a secret sauce, if you will. It's probably those two things, just making sure you're hearing them and validating appetizing all those things. I really feel like Stephanie and I, we do an extraordinary job at that. And I think that's why our results are so great, so awesome.

Thank you both for for this for this recording, for this podcast that we're recording here. And Nicole, thanks for the idea of doing this. And Stephanie, thanks for coming in and sharing as much as you have know. I think for all of you listening, here's what it's felt like for me as a business owner. I can tell you we've seen some dramatic shift since last July. We've seen a marked improvement in retention. So the people coming into our programs are sticking in the programs more. They're staying longer. They're actually staying past the end of the program, period. A lot more often. We're actually seeing a lot of people who as a as a as a company owner, I'm seeing people who come in. And because we've identified we saw their exact problem, we're getting crazy rapid results with people. I just shared a testimonial yesterday of somebody who's been with us less than six months, less than six months, and she's gone from one million to now a solid two million dollar run rate. And she believes that before the end of the year, she's been with us. She will have gone from one to three million. So when you have this type of a process where you're identifying not prospective people, you can sell, but you're identifying prospective people, you can help. You also get this massive increase in referrals and an excitement around the program and then just drop this in the chat. So good. We have a 90 percent adoption rate and a ninety five percent retention rate here. Let me tell you what that means. That means 90 percent of the people coming into our program are getting into the system, are implementing, are adopting, are actually taking action in the coaching and information products world. That number is reversed. 90 percent of people don't take action. If you look at the average product out there, about five to 10 percent of people actually apply and gauge do anything with it. So we've reversed that completely. And a big part of that is this what I called negative pressure sales process. Like we have zero pressure there. You'll actually feel like we'll back away a little bit if it feels too high pressure and we're still not still we are now converting at the 40 to 50 percent range. So if you've been looking at your sales process and it felt some frustration with it, this provides a different option in a different way to look at it. Nicole, Stephanie, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you so much for working through this with me. I remember I loved that call that I had with you, Nicole, where I was like, hey, everybody is telling me this isn't going to work. And you were like, great, let's try it. And I think it just it speaks to your personality and who you are that like, if there's an uphill climb, but there's a reward at the top, let's go for it. And I think that's who we are as a team. And I feel like we have definitively proven that in Listin, at least in our company, removing commissioned sales and putting pure and true consultative sales in place has completely shifted. Everything has improved. How many people we're bringing into the programs has improved delivery and adoption and has crazy improved retention. This has been a game changer for us and I hope it is for you too. And if you're listening and you'd like to sign up for a sales call with one of our team to understand how we can help you as a company, grow and scale, you can use my link, go to Alex VIP call Dotcom, go to Alex VIP, call Dotcom. Then we'll know that you came in off of this podcast and our team will make sure. Did they consult with you, understand where you're coming from, like Nicole said, validate and relate and see if we can help you. So check out Alex VIP call Dotcom. And I have a suspicion that we'll probably be doing another sales training podcast like this coming up soon. We're going to get a lot of positive feedback from this one. I can already feel it, so I look forward to having you both back. Thanks, everybody.

Thank you.

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